You have travelled throughout the country, what is your take on the election mood?
Each place has its own distinctiveness. Particularly in the South, wherever I've been to, particularly Tamil Nadu and Kerala, there's a very, very distinct anti-BJP, anti-Modi sentiment that can be seen. So, all this propaganda by the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) that the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) crossing 400, looks like a total pipe dream. People's issues, people's day-to-day issues are coming to the fore, and people are responding to those issues, even in public meetings and interactions. That has been my experience.
How is the situation in Kerala?
The situation in Kerala, as always, is completely polarized between the Left Democratic Front (LDF) and the United Democratic Front (UDF). Kerala electorate is an extremely mature electorate, makes its own decisions vis-a-vis the central government and the state government and the state elections. But this time, a stronger presence of the Left in Parliament is absolutely essential, like in 2004. This is the dominant feeling that I could discern through this campaign. People search for that.
They want the Left, not the Congress from Kerala in Parliament?
A stronger Left in Parliament, how that will be interpreted, that the people will decide. It could go the way in 2004 - the Kerala people gave the LDF 18 out of the 20 seats. And that actually contributed in a very big way to both the civility of the then UPA and Manmohan Singh government and also for the slew of pro-people policies. Employment guarantee, right to information, the right to food security, the right to the tribals for forest land and produce, the right to education, all this was possible because of a strong Left and a UPA government that was committed to implement pro-people policy. So both the objectives - safeguarding India's secular democratic character and working for people's interests were possible with a stronger Left. That is the point.
This time the CPI(M ) is contesting in 14 states and one UT - a total of 52 seats. In 2019, you contested in 69 and you could win only three and you lost your deposit in 51. Interestingly, I can draw a comparison with 1977 when you contested in 53 and won 22. Are you expecting a repeat of of 1977, or are you fearing a repeat of 2019?
You see, statistics, adrift of politics, is meaningless. In 1977, that politics was that there was this anti-emergency mood, the entire coming together of the Opposition. You had that understanding between the Opposition parties. That is why even when contesting in less number of seats, we could win more because there was this joint thing. That is why mere statistics minus politics is meaningless in understanding political trends.
So the point is that last time there was no understanding with the Congress. So we contested all the seats like we normally used to do earlier. But this time there's an understanding with the Congress, and therefore the Congress is contesting a certain number of seats, and our seats have been reduced. The standard reduction is there. This reduction is again on the basis of concrete political conditions. So it's not just a number in the abstract. And I think this time, it will be much better because state to state, there has been a certain understanding. For instance, in Bihar, we are only contesting one seat as part of the Mahagadbandan. Normally otherwise, we would have contested about four to five seats. In Rajasthan, we are contesting one seat in understanding with the Congress. So contesting more or less is meaningless without the political context.
So you were talking about the sacrifice you have done being part of the Opposition front. But in Andamans, Assam, Karnataka, Punjab, Telangana and Odisha, we see the CPI(M) candidates pitched against Congress or the INDIA bloc. If you are so benevolent, how do you explain this?
No, we were benevolent to the extent of not self-erasure. You want us to erase ourselves? If the Congress is not reasonable, then in certain states, we will contest. Even there, you'll find it's only in one seat each.
In a state like Bihar, you are okay with one seat. But in Karnataka, you're very particular about Chikkapallapur, you want that one seat; Punjab, you want Jallandhar; in Telangana, you want Bhuvanagari. What is all this?
That is exactly the same thing.
You are the spoiler there in those seats.
No, it is they who want to be the spoiler. How many do you think the Congress will win out of what they are contesting? How many will they win? You tell me. You tell me, how many will Congress win in Andhra Pradesh?
I'm talking about Telangana.
Yeah, even in Telangana. How many do you think the Congress will win?
I think the Congress will do much better compared to last time.
That is compared to last time. If they had taken the Left along with them, they would do much better even compared to the earlier. I mean, even this time, even in the assembly elections, if they had taken the Left together. But, it is they who refuse to. They seem to think that they can now do without the Left. So be it. So we'll also have to. I mean, it doesn't mean that we close, we end our politics because of them. So they had to be reasonable and when they are not reasonable the Left has been forced to fight.
It seems you are so agitated with that question.
I'm agitated because how can such a simple fact miss your mind?
Let me come to the role of general secretaries of the CPI(M) in forming coalitions or in dismantling coalitions: In 2004 Harkishan Singh Surjeet had a major role in forming the UPA-Left coalition. The coalition was there for a few years when Prakash Karat was the general secretary. Later on, he was there to end it. In 2019, you tried your best to form an opposition coalition, but you didn't succeed. How do you explain that situation?
Why you mean it didn't succeed?
You didn't succeed. In 2019, you couldn't do anything for opposition unity.
In 2019, why it could not be done? It was because of the Congress. Now this INDIA formation, the Left has played a very major role in the formation and establishment of this INDIA bloc. Even the worst critics of ours would not deny that. So that's it, given the role that we could play and that depends on the actual political situation.
When Surjeet was a general secretary, the CPI(M) had three state governments and was the third-largest party in Parliament. Three state governments with 61 members in the Lok Sabha. That meant that it could play a completely different role than what had been played with one state government and three members in the Lok Sabha. That is the major difference. It's not about personalities. It is the actual objective reality.
Since you were talking about 2019, there was no Opposition alliance, but now INDIA bloc is there. Why should people trust this alliance? Especially, we have the experience of the United Front government and of 1977. Why should people trust this alliance?
Because this is the best alternative they have. Otherwise, trusting the BJP-led NDA and seeing the destruction of the secular democratic India and the entire character of our republic. That is the other choice people have.
What is the guarantee that the INDIA bloc parties will remain together, united to protect the secular character of the country, the Constitution, and democracy?
The first step would be that we'll stop them, the BJP and the RSS, from proceeding further with the demolition of the secular character. That stoppage will play a very important role, like in 1977, the stoppage of the Congress destroying democracy in India played an important role, even with the instability of the Janta Party. Then the Congress could not dare go back to the emergency situation. The entire politics and the dynamics in the country changed. That is what will happen even this time.
Narendra Modi is saying that people who are against the development of the country and who don't want a poor man to be the prime minister are opposing him and the party.
What nonsense. It is primarily because we want the development of the country, not the development of the cronies and not the development of the corporate-Hindutva nexus that Modi has built up. Modi has built up a corporate-Hindutva nexus that is looting country's resources, that is looting the country's assets. The entire wealth of India is being taken away by a few, most of them being Modi cronies, and the people are denied the development benefits. It is precisely to bring people to the centrefold that Modi should go. That is why. What poor man not being the prime minister? I mean, this is also a mythology. What is this poor man business?
Look at the Congress president. What is he? Where is he from? So all this is publicity, gimmicks of Mr. Modi which people are now fed up with. And I think that is going to play a very important role in the forthcoming election.
Initially, Modi found fault with the name INDIA, and now he is calling it a ‘tukde tukde’ gang.
Naturally, he'll always fall back to that. He has to fall back to either communal polarization or threat to national interests and national security, because, there's nothing else they have. They have nothing else except a negative narrative.
We were talking about Opposition unity. But now we see the CPI(M) trying to find problems with the Congress manifesto, especially on the CAA. But in the manifesto, they have said that we will review all the laws which are against the spirit of the Constitution.
That is in Kerala, I think. At the all-India level, we have not commented about the Congress manifesto.
So, it is a Kerala issue?
Yeah. I mean, this is in Kerala where the Congress is confronting us directly.
When we compare manifestos, there are many differences... For example, the CPI is for the abolition of the office of governor. You don't want abolition. You are talking about how the selection process should be more transparent involving the chief minister.
Of course, that's why we are different parties. Otherwise, we would have been one party.
And, you have a problem with the nuclear bomb.
Is there anything new about it?
Prime Minister has a problem with it.
This Prime Minister must be told, thanks to the nuclear bomb, you have made Pakistan a nuclear power. When there were no nuclear bombs, India had a tremendous advantage over Pakistan in conventional warfare. Now they have brought Pakistan on par with India. That is the biggest contribution they have done. They talk about their muscularity. The objective outcome of their muscularity is that they have given Pakistan the status of a nuclear power equivalent to India. They have equalized Pakistan with India. That is the biggest contribution they have made.
Modi is saying that Rahul is silently supporting Kerala Chief Minister Pinarayi Vijayan’s corruption, but, Rahul is saying Modi is not putting Pinarayi in jail. And Rahul is a good friend of yours, unlike Modi.
Let Mr Modi and Mr Rahul Gandhi decide with themselves who's right and who's wrong. They are saying things, not me. They are saying things about each other. Let them decide who's right and who's wrong.
What you're trying to say?
Why drag me into it?
You are a good friend of Rahul and he is saying the chief minister of Kerala should be in jail. Rahul is making the CPI(M) angry.
When they say wrong things, we have never hesitated to say you're saying wrong things, you are not correct. Being friends means to point this out.
Have you pointed it out to Rahul?
Of course, I'm publicly pointing it out.
As a friend, did you point it out?
What are friends or enemies? The problem is that there's no need to have enemies always, everywhere. The point is that the question is, I'm saying what I'm saying publicly. What I say privately and what I say publicly, there is no difference. So what I'm saying publicly, I'm saying that this is a wrong thing that is being said about the Kerala chief minister.
Congress’ allegation against the CPI(M) is that you have an understanding with the BJP because of the cases against the leaders of your party in Kerala.
We are a party that does not talk in terms of individual names or individual people or individual issues. We are a party that goes on the basis of issues, programmes, and policies. Now, on every single policy matter and issue taken up by the Modi government, who was in the forefront of Opposition? CAA- the first national party to be arrested on the streets for opposition to it was the CPI(M). I was also one of the earliest ones to be arrested on that issue. Article 370 – who was the one that challenged that and who broke the iron curtain with the Supreme Court’s permission and travelled to Srinagar? The only national leader to be able to enter Srinagar at that time and meet all these detained political leaders was me. Bilkis Bano’s case – which is the party that actually filed, apart from the other organizations, but the political parties? The only political party that filed, saying that this remission of their sentence is wrong, must be reversed, justice must be delivered, and which was finally delivered. The gang rapists are back in jail. That was the CPI(M), Which is the party, the only party that went to the Supreme Court on the electoral bonds? Which is the only party that refused to take electoral bonds? CPI(M). On all these decisions of Modi, it was the CPI(M) that was in the forefront. How are you saying that we're being soft on Modi?
No, it's not the question of being soft on Modi. It's not about what CPI(M) is doing as a political party. The specific charge is related to certain persons, the leaders of the CPI(M) in Kerala. That is why there is a tacit understanding between the BJP and the party or those individuals.
If there are cases, then you pursue all of them. All are in the merit of the central government now.
That is why there is this allegation of a quid pro quo. For example, the slow progress in the Lavlin case in the Supreme Court. The charge is that it is because of the understanding between the CPI(M) and the BJP.
How because of the understanding with Modi there is a slow progress in the Lavlin case?
The CBI is a petitioner against Pinarayi, the agency that is alleged to be misused by the Modi government.
Yeah, but the issue is there's no basis for that case. That is why they're not able to proceed. It is not for any other reason. How can you say it's part of some understanding?
I'm not saying. The Congress in Kerala is saying.
Yeah, but that is ridiculous. Just because they can't establish a case, you see this understanding.
There are corruption cases against CPI(M). I'm not going into the merit of each case. But, how much has the allegations of corruption and some cases of nepotism have dented the image of CPI(M) nationally? Even, Modi is saying that CPI(M) was not like this earlier.
I think most of these allegations that are being levelled against us are only finding expression during election time.
No, these cases and allegations are there much before the elections.
But it is always with the elections in mind. What is this nepotism? The children of political leaders becoming political leaders is nepotism.
The chief minister’s son-in-law is a minister in the father-in-law’s cabinet.
So many of the chief ministers of the other parties whose children are now ministers... That is what? Democracy.
True. But the CPI(M) was a party with a difference when it came to the high standard you always followed.
Okay, then you accept that you are from a low standard and you are bemoaning my reduction from my high standard.
Yes, others are very much concerned about you!
I know. I mean, not that they want to rise to our standards. They don't want to rise to our standards. They're very concerned about us.
You are stooping to their level.
Why are they concerned about it? They must be happy about it if they think that we are stooping to their level because they know that is not correct. Just because somebody is the son of somebody or the wife of somebody, it doesn't mean that their merit ceases.
Whether the charges are true or not is a different issue. Whether it has dented the image of the party is the question – looking at it from a national perspective.
How can it dent the image when the charges are false?
False or not is for the courts to decide. But now the charges are there, the FIRs are there, investigations are there.
Let them be. I have cases like dacoity, 120B conspiracy for raising and leading political agitations.
Please don't compare cases for political agitations with cases for corruption, swindling of money.
We believe they are all false allegations.
You believe, I agree. That word is important. How do you look at the use of ED and IT Dept against the CPI(M)? They have reasons to act in the case of the Thrissur Karuvannoor Bank, in the CMRL case, or even the IT action against your party on the issue of returns.
In the Thrissur case, one year ago, all the accounts were submitted. Nothing faulty was found then. How is this suddenly a thing found now as faulty? And that IT return thing is also completely false. We've gone to the court on it. The court has acted on it, admitted it. I'm sure that it will be proven as a vindictive action that the department has taken. There is no account of the CPI(M) which uses the CPI(M) PAN number that has not been accounted for.
You mentioned the Thrissur Bank issue. What about the depositors who lost their money in large amounts? There are people who committed suicide. There are people who couldn't get medical treatment on time.
I don't know about those cases. I'm the general secretary of the party. I'm talking of the CPI(M)’s accounts. I don't know about those other things.
That is a bank run by the party.
The party doesn't run any banks. Don’t take that ridiculous position. These are issues that are very Kerala-specific. The Kerala leaders have to answer them, and they will answer them.
Earlier when there were charges of corruption, any allegation, the CPI(M) used to do a proper inquiry. If someone was found guilty, took action or came out saying that this is the actual position.
But now what? We still do it.
Now there is a big difference. Particularly in the CMRL controversy the Kerala CPI(M) is trying to justify a family member, not a party leader.
Again, you're asking me some Kerala-specific questions. I don't know the details about it.
You don't know the specifics of the CMRL issue?
Stop being so specious. Saying, Oh, you don't know the case, etc. It's not the case, it's the details I'm talking about.
But there are specific allegations...
I'm not going to answer. I cannot and will not answer. I think you are exceeding your limit of this interview. You want to now set an agenda.
An interview has to be an interview.
No, but you can't get stuck in Kerala.
That is where the party exists.
That's what you think. Tamil Nadu had double the number of MPs than Kerala had.
Yeah, at the mercy of DMK. That is how Tamil Nadu practices social justice. Coming back to the electoral bonds: What is your idea of how will parties find money for elections, if not through corporates? Even the Indrijit Gupta Committee (1999) on State Funding of Elections, said corporate funding is a reality. And that corporates are donating for social service, they have every right to donate to political parties... it is part of their freedom of expression.
Number one: We have said that there should be state funding for elections. Number two, the corporates must donate to strengthen democracy. Like you have the corporate social responsibility fund, you have a law where a certain percentage of their profits are donated to a fund for democracy. And that fund for democracy is maintained by the government or by the election commission, whatever can be decided by Parliament. There are models in Germany. There are models in many countries, Western countries that can be followed. So we are saying that do away with corporate funding to political parties directly and let corporates fund, I mean, donate to a fund. And that fund must, accordingly, according to certain norms, that will be decided. Like it is done in many other countries.
On the issue of the Citizenship Amendment Act, when you say you want to abolish the Act, are you saying the earlier law is sufficient?
That is sufficient, absolutely. People have been given citizenship under those laws. Yes, present laws are sufficient. If there's any fine-tuning, it has to be done, let that be examined by the legal experts. That can be done.
You are one person who always talked about the so-called post-poll alliance. Now you are in a different situation. You didn't want to be a part of the alliance, but the word alliance is very much part of the name. How do you explain that change in the situation?
Alliance was part of the name. That came as a nomenclature. That is why everybody calls it the INDIA bloc. It is INDIA bloc- that is an alliance bloc That is the terminology used by all partners of the INDIA alliance. Now, the point is there are two things. Pre-poll alliances are electoral adjustments. Post-poll alliances are for the formation of the government. So that is the difference. When I always say post-poll, I always say for the government formation.
Coming to the partners of the INDIA alliance, do you really trust the partners? For example, Mamata’s TMC. It all affects the survival and stability of the Alliance.
Yes, exactly. There have always been cases were some parties have actually moved away from their commitment when the government was formed and those governments fell. You had the United Front government that fell when the Congress withdrew its support. You had the V.P. Singh government fall when the BJP withdrew its support. So you have parties which eventually agree and then they withdraw. Such things have happened in the past and we have lived through them. And, on that basis, we have been progressing further. That's completely likely to happen.
In 1977, you were part of the Opposition coalition. You didn't have a prime minister candidate that time. This time also there is no PM candidate. For the BJP, Modi is there, the tallest leader, the strongest leader, the muscular... Not projecting a Prime Minister - will it in any way affect your prospects.
You were a journalist in 2004 also. You remember the whole argument then saying that who is the alternative to Vajpayee. And, the same argument is there now today, who's the alternative to Modi. That alternative came to Vajpayee. For 10 years, you had. Now also, alternative will come. Don't worry.
What about the other parties which are not part of any alliance? BSP, YSRCP, BRS, BJD, Shiramani Akail Dal, etc. What role do you expect them to play?
I think most of these parties that you named will take a position post-election, seeing what is the result.
It all depends on who comes into power or who has a chance of coming to power.
Yeah. I think they are watching. I think after the election, they'll all take a position.
As a general secretary, do you think CPI(M) will emerge stronger after this election?
I think so. We are working towards that, and I'm sure we will be stronger.
Modi is talking about 400 plus for NDA and 370 plus for the BJP, and, we don't see any prediction from the INDIA side. With almost 50 years of experience in politics, that too in Delhi, do you have any predictions?
That is why I'm wiser, and therefore I don't predict. I'm wiser, unlike the others. But those who are predicting that they'll get more than 400 seats, why are they so desperate to actually break the opposition parties and indulge in massive horse trading? If they're getting more than 400, why are they so desperate? Breaking all sorts of parties and doing horse trading and incorporating them. The BJP today in a large number of circles is known as the new Congress, with so many former Congressmen they have taken, broken and taken through horse-trading. It is no longer the BJP, it is the new Congress. You should ask them, what is their character now?
You are saying that you are wiser not to make any predictions, you are not ready to predict even the victory of the INDIA alliance.
I'm predicting the defeat of the BJP. You're asking me prediction in numbers.
Not just the numbers. When it comes to parties and the coalition.
I'm predicting the defeat of the Modi government.
Not the victory of the INDIA alliance?
What else does it mean?
I'm just asking you for clarity.
It could be for various regional parties, at various levels, who are not yet part of INDIA, who may come post-election.
